Okay. So ultimately Steve has the burden here to show that the Marian dogmas contradict scripture, and hes brought up a lot of points. Im trying to appeal to Catholic guilt, but its not working. His primary concern is to simply say that Jesus had no earthly father. It uses [Greek 00:37:34], not [Greek 00:37:36]. Their issue is about the authority of the church. Though, I will say the Septuagint was completed only within a few centuries, possibly even one century, by the time of Jesus crucifixion. Christie also served as an analyst for The Score Television Network. Well talk about adelphos more in the rebuttal period. Morgan Stanley, +4 more. Steve Ray was the third of five children in a family that became Baptist in the 1950s. Overview. WHY PROTESTANT BIBLES ARE SMALLER: A Defense of the Protestant Old Testament Canon - Kindle edition by Christie, Steve. Should it be included in the Old Testament canon? All right. H. However, prior to this debate, Trent and I had agreed not to talk about Mary being referred to it as the mother of God, because its not really an issue that we disagree on, as long as it is understood how it was originally meant to be a Christological title and not a specific title of Mary, such as being queen of heaven. Well start with an easy one, the Bodily Assumption of Mary. Do Protestants Have the Correct Old Testament Canon Trent Horn Vs Steve Christie Debate, The Canon of Scripture Debate Part 1 Gary Michuta (Catholic) vs. Steve Christie (Protestant), Why Protestant Bibles Are Smaller with Steve Christie. So I dont believe that the church in the biblical sense has been an era all that time. In 2004, Christie was signed by the Jacksonville Jaguars to put some pressure on struggling rookie Josh Scobee. In the Darby translation of the New Testament, where in second Thessalonians Chapter 2, when it talks about worshiping images and worshiping idols, it actually uses the word veneration and it literally can be translated worship. I would say the church subsist in the Catholic church though other non-Catholic Christians have an imperfect communion with the church. I would say that this is a really important question and one for us to look at, that for Protestants and Catholics to have dialogue with one another and to get closer to the truth, I think its huge to be able to move from And what this debate is about, is about do these beliefs contradict Scripture? Theres more to it than that. So that would mean if youre the firstborn, that youre going to have other children. We honor our father who is in heaven, and we give honor to Mary, who is the mother of God that brought our savior into the world. He was human. I know not man. Its the same Greek words that Mary says when she says, I know not man.. Well, not necessarily. Greg is one of the leading apologists of our day and has had a huge impact on my personal and professional life. Kelly said, for the great majority of the early Church Fathers, the deuterocanonical writings ranked as Scripture in the fullest sense (Early Christian Doctrines, 55). He might bring it up in his rebuttal. Thank you very much, Trent. I had mentioned about the word all, pas, all have sin and fall short of the glory of God. The word paraphrase very frequently provides adequate description of the relationship (Introducing the Apocrypha, 22). You can also reach me on Facebook, Twitter and YouTube. My point was that we should not believe in doctrines that plainly contradict Scripture. That was a really well articulated opening statement and I appreciate it. Yeah. But hell say we can believe in that exception because of whats come from divine revelation in sacred Scripture. So we have to read the context. For example, in Psalm 69:5, it says of the Messiah, Oh God thou knowist my folly. And if he had met sister-in-law, such as Marys sister in John chapter 19, he wouldve utilize the Greek word, [Greek 00:47:36] thats used in the book of Ruth to describe Orpahs relationship with Ruth. First Corinthians 15, in my opening statement, it says that there are heavenly bodies and earthly bodies and people who have earthly bodies are sown perishable, meaning corruptible in dishonor, meaning contempt, reproach. And even if it wasnt, I dont see the relevance to it. The immaculate conception, should we dogmatize should we not?, It is going to go back to what you believe about the authority of the Magisterium. And in the new Testament, the specific Greek word for savior is used about two dozen in times, and every time that its used in scripture, in the New Testament, it always refers to God or Jesus being a savior of salvation and saving someone from sins, which is why I brought up Acts chapter five and The Epistle of Titus. A fully independent, lay-run, 501(c)(3) ministry that receives no funding from the institutional Church, we rely entirely on the generosity of everyday people like you to keep this website going with trustworthy, fresh, and relevant content. So a child that age, you think its realistic that in the condition that they were brought up, that Mary could have never committed a sin especially as a child? But the problem with this argument is that it says in Luke 2:22-24, that its offered for their purification. I think it will be. But anyways, Im going to come back to that. Hebrews 11:5 states, "By faith Enoch was taken up so that he would not see death.' And he was not found because God took him up. So youre going to agree it does not deny Mary was assumed into heaven? I would probably enjoy Clement of Rome, even though 1 Clement wasnt written by an individual, but rather there was a poly group of bishops in 1 Clement. Okay. One, ones natural sister, such as a sister of the same parents or a half sister or, two, a believing sister, such as a Christian sister. For more information, visit trenthornpodcast.com. I do. But let me get to that point about death though. Thats kind of hard. The Morning Ritual with Garret Lewis. So Im going to put a link in the description below. Removing this book will also remove your associated ratings, reviews, and reading sessions. So does this mean that James was Zebedees only son? Many of you know I now have a Catholic Lo-Fi channel. As I showed earlier, you have people like Martin Luther, Ulrich Zwingli, who were firmly I would not call them Catholic. In fact, in that debate, I never brought up the Magisterium of the Catholic Church. He says, of Jacob and Esau in Rebeccas womb, they were not yet born and had done nothing, either good or bad.This means children who die in early childhood represent millions of examples of people who never committed a personal sin in their entire lives. But that doesnt mean that we cant show veneration and respect towards the things that God has made and those people who have cooperated with God in salvation history. Lets debate the Apocrypha! Rather, biblically the church is every individual sinner who God has redeemed out of the world to be a slave to our master and Lord Jesus Christ, every individual sinner. My screen name is BornAgainRN, so you can look at me that way. The claim that Mary did not give birth to other children because Jesus is called the son of Mary. Coming to the industry in 1990, he soon discovered that the practice of Real Estate by most was not at the level of professionalism that he had envisioned. You can also speak of adoptive children using biological language. Because they have the same father but different mothers. With the Bills, he would become one of the game's top kickers. If you guys could try to keep your answers to about two minutes each. I believe hes referring to part of a declaration in [inaudible 01:35:47], the declaration about the immaculate conception made by the Pope in 1854, saying that the fathers had always believed this about Mary being immaculately conceived. But again, like it says, they were assumed bodily into heaven, but they had inherited original sin, just as Mary did. Gov. I believe all things are possible with God. And weve also addressed that frequently at catholic.com. Steve Christie also has his own website. And I also have a video about seven popes, and possibly eight popes, that did not believe in the immaculate conception of Mary. Sure. All right, Steve, whenever you begin, I Actually, just give me one second. Steve, youre going to go first with five minutes and then Trent. Were going to move into seven-minute rebuttals. So as far as I know, I dont know offhand but that doesnt mean that its not being used. Geoffrey Stephen Christie (born November 13, 1967) [1] is a former Canadian American football placekicker in the National Football League (NFL), who, as a member of the Buffalo Bills, became known for his ability to kick clutch field goals, even in poor weather. Sep 29, 2021. Thanks. Does the Authorial Model have a Fictitious Problem? Theyll say that I dont believe it, but Steve might say it doesnt contradict scripture necessarily. You have seven-, All right. I wish that all were as I myself am. Since Mary and Joseph wouldve been the most chaste holy family, this would not apply to them. And at basic, psalms 69, if you continue reading, it says that the Messiah was taking on the reproach of other people. He was preceded in death by both his parents. So yeah, I would just encourage people just to continue to read and learn, dive into the word, dive into the teachings of the church historically, just to come to a knowledge of the church Jesus Christ established. The wrongs I have done are not hidden from thee. But Jesus did not do any wrong. Facebook Now I think Steve would probably say that there can be Protestants who believe things that Scriptures silent about, like infant baptism. And see, heres the thing. Im a little disturbed about the comment about anything in Scripture being in error, because if we cannot trust that when it says about Jesus being our savior and rising from the dead. It sounds like you are using it for your view of Jesus in a very unique way. Thats the purpose of their assumptions. Well, first of all, I would say that I disagree with Trent as a Catholic as how you define the word church, that in Roman Catholicism church is defined specifically as the Pope of the magisterium, and then when you get baptized in the church, you become part of that. Also, Christie claims, as do many Protestants, that Jesus and the apostles endorsed only the Protestant canon because they never explicitly cite the deuterocanonical books of Scripture. Its free to watch the podcast. Steve Christie joins me this week to discuss how he got started in apologetics and why it is important. . It is not considered inspired. Steve Christie also has his own website. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. [foreign language 00:26:34] was also used in literature that existed at roughly the same time period as the New Testament. Now in the Septuagint as well as in the New Testament, adelphos is used to talk about people who have the same father but different mothers. So thank you very much both you, God bless you, and stay safe out there. If Matthew wished to convey Marys virginity was perpetual, there would be no need to add until she gave birth to a son. She wouldve simply ended with he kept her a virgin or added throughout her marriage. And remember this is the focus of our debate, how its used in scripture. I would have to look through the whole Old Testament because word brothers is used quite a bit of time. And maybe we can go to Trent and then Steve. So that doesnt take away from what an errancy is about, which is Scriptures specific affirmations related to what it affirms. This is actually based on Jeromes incorrect translation, where he used the word ipsa for she, rather than the corrected translation, which is ipsum for he, which is actually supported in Romans chapter 16 when it says, Jesus is the prince whose heel would be bruised.. No one ever says the gift of prophecy or divine revelation had returned after being absent for several centuries. So I think that was an excellent opening statement. So if Jesus has adelphi, he must have had sisters who were born of Mary. Steve, you are going to be beginning with 15 minutes. And we can safely assume that Jesus saw the body of Moses on the Mount of Transfiguration. But the only thing we should offer on an altar is the body and blood of Jesus Christ, the lamb of God that he has given to us at Calvary. . The other reason was that as a Canadian citizen, playing one game in the CFL, would be great way to finish his career. You would expect there to be deviations from it. Qualification, rates and payments will vary based on timing and individual circumstances. No, it doesnt. They were committed to Sola scriptura but we also have to remember that even though they were formers, they were also Roman Catholics and their issue with Romans was not about Marian dogmas, it was about the authority of scripture over the authority of the church. So my point would be that if we would show that devotion to the means through which Jesus died, why wouldnt we show that similar devotion through the means by which Jesus was born? He says, Trent, the proclamation on Marys immaculate conception says that the fathers unanimously believed that which is false. 2022 Defenders Media All Rights Reserved, Apologetics315 is a ministry of Defenders Media, 501(c)(3) a non-profit organization. Stephen Christie has been at the top of the Real Estate Industry for 30 years. For storing and sharing my Apologetic Infographics. Whenever you begin, I will click your time for-. So I would definitely encourage people who are willing to explore the churchs teachings about Mary more. A Facebook "Dialogue" With Baptist Author Steve Christie. What am I to do with this? And then she was placed to be serving within the temple. Moreover, his arguments for a shorter Old Testament canon are contradicted by the biblical and historical evidence. Steve may not believe thats what the text says, but if it does say that, theres no contradiction in it saying that. Let me ask you this, was Jesus Christ free from sin? (Horn V. Christie) About Ap315: The mission of Apologetics 315 is to provide educational resources for the defense of the Christian faith, with the goal of strengthening the faith of believers and engaging the questions and challenges of other worldviews. He says, Jesus words would have sounded exactly the same if the narrative of Zechariahs death had occurred in the book of Kings or in the Psalms. So again, argument by exception. This is a great resource to have, and the beautiful photos of the children in the womb speak for themselves. And in this case, infallibility would only cover the definition that Mary was conceived free from original sin and free from sin her entire life. He then went on to kick five field goals in the Bills 29-10 win over the Miami Dolphins in the AFC championship game, helping Buffalo get to their third consecutive Super Bowl. So our listeners can go there to read that. Give me a second here. Christiaan Kappes. Dr. Tony Costa and Steve Christie, The Issue of Canon and Sola Scriptura - The Council, Presuppositional Apologetics Round Up: Third week of August 2021 | The Domain for Truth, Response to Sam Shamoun's post Purgatory debate recap of Dr. Michael Brown against William Albrecht - The Council, Responding to Gary Michuta's Abel to Zechariah Counter-Arguments with Steve Christie & Paul - The Council, The Marian Dogmas Contradict Scripture, Trent Horn Vs. Steve Christie - The Council, Necessitarianism: Conceive of the Possibilities. G.K. Chesterton - famous author, philosopher, theologian, apologist. Gordon Clark - Christian philosopher, apologist, and theologian. United States. How about Marys parents and Joseph who was from the same tribe who she was betrothed to? Finally, as H.G.L. Steve Christie joins me this week to discuss how he got started in apologetics and why it is important. In his recent book Why Protestant Bibles Are Smaller, Protestant apologist Steve Christie claims that all Christians should accept the Protestant Old Testament canon and reject the deuterocanonical books of Judith, Tobit, Baruch, Wisdom, Sirach, 1and 2 Maccabees, and portions of Daniel and Esther. Im throwing you a bone here. Okay, I get that. Since he is the uncreated sinless deity conceived by the holy spirit. Yes. Mary and Joseph are perfectly free to have children. Can a conclusion be infallible if the underlying logic is false? But before we do that, I want to say thank you to our sponsor, Hallow. In Not Really Of Us, author and former skeptic, Steve Christie, examines specific reasons why your child abandoned the Christian faith. Weve got lots of great content that comes out weekly more seriously, and you dont want to miss it, so click subscribe. It can only mean figurative sister or biological sister. Were going to move into a time of closing statements. Please try again later. Yes. Christian authors, however, never present a list of inspired books written before the time of Christ that matches the Protestant Old Testament canon. . And what I would say here is that I agree that use of [inaudible 01:22:20] in Luke 1:28 does not prove the doctrine of the immaculate conception. So this first question is for both of you, well start with Trent and then Steve, this comes from Estaban. Scripture reveals Mary was a Virgin, but conflicts with her being a perpetual Virgin. "Bills and Eagles Turn Mountains Into Molehill; Buffalo Erases 35-Point Deficit", https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Steve_Christie&oldid=1134968114, College of William & Mary Sports Hall of Fame, This page was last edited on 21 January 2023, at 20:11. Okay. They would be sons from another marriage. And weve seen that time and time again, and so Im going to address the other examples that hes just raised. I think thats really terrific. I think there is good reason to believe that, but thats not what were debating today. Did I have one other thing here? And I truly believe that because youre a nice guy. Until his death of cancer at 74 in May, Zacharias had been one of the best-known figures of American Christian radio and TV for decades. They also allude to events and stories contained in these texts. So lets apply these standards to the remaining dogmas. According to Old Testament scholar Otto Kaiser, the deuterocanonical books presuppose the validity of the Law and the Prophets and also utilize the Ketubim or Writings collection which was, at the time, still in the process of formation and not yet closed (Old Testament Apocrypha, 2). Okay. We discuss his books, with the most popular being Why Protestant Bibles Are Smaller, and well as leading Bible studies in his home. Indeed, the Talmudic tract Sanhedrin 100B refers to rabbis with-drawing Sirach, or declaring it to be no longer inspired and thus withdrawn from synagogue reading. While scripturally affirming Jesus is the son of God, they contradict scripture by claiming that Jesus is Michael the archangel, because scripture affirms Michael is a created being while Jesus is the eternal deity. I mean, I have to really think about that. But Steve cant construct a Protestant canon out of what Jesus and the apostles cited because, as Protestant scholar Bruce Metzger observes, Nowhere in the New Testament is there a direct quotation from the canonical books of Joshua, Judges, Chronicles, Ezra, Nehemiah, Esther, Ecclesiastes, the Song of Solomon, Obadiah, Zephaniah, and Nahum; and the New Testament allusions to them are few in number (The Cambridge History of the Bible, 148). And I think that in general, those arguments arent very strong, but in some cases, saying that something is fitting can point us in that direction. And most commentaries agree that this passage parallels what Hannah says in First Samuel 2:1, and she likewise doesnt mention sin. Contrary to what Steve said this has been infallibly defined, though before the ex cathedra statements of the First Vatican Counsel. This sure is fun, isnt it? Oct 10 My debate against Dr Robert Sungenis has been RESCHEDULED for Tues Nov 8 at 8pm EST: youtube.com He says, Steve. Were debating whether scripture contradicts it, and that has not been demonstrated here. And the fact that Trent is saying that the holy family would not need to apply to that, hes imputing his Catholic theology into the text. Geoffrey Stephen Christie (born November 13, 1967)[1] is a former Canadian American football placekicker in the National Football League (NFL), who, as a member of the Buffalo Bills, became known for his ability to kick clutch field goals, even in poor weather. As I had mentioned, the way a dogma can contradict scripture is if its explicit, implicit, or partial. So when does Marion devotion turn into idolatry? This is the number one downloaded Catholic app in the app store, and it is the best app Ive ever used ever. Yet many Protestants believe in this doctrine. Now, does the Bible teach that everyone has sinned? Trent, do you want to start or do you want me to answer that first? Hebrews 9:27 says, Its appointed for men to die once, but some people die twice. For forty years he has been a fixture in the firmament of the apologetic pantheon, lecturing worldwide and publishing popular books like The End of Reason and Jesus Among Other Gods. Well, again, this is the exception. Yeah, sounds good. Can a person with a human nature die even if they are free from sin? Trace and Steve both share their thoughts on the current state of Bitcoin and Wyoming's friendly Blockchain laws. Does the Bible ever say Mary was not assumed into heaven? She didnt become sin either according to Roman Catholicism. Okay, you can start now. The first is if you are watching right now and you are not yet subscribed to this YouTube channel, click subscribe, click the bell button. So it still fits semantically. For example, the Essene Jews, whose writings have been preserved in the Dead Sea Scrolls, recognized the deuterocanonical books as Scripture. Where in the Bible is the Greek word adelphos used to describe siblings having the same mother but different fathers. First Corinthians chapter seven, again, it says, For a season in order to separate, but then it says, So that you go back, married couples to go back so you do not get tempted by Satan because of your lack of self-control. All right. A19: Interview with Apologetics.com: The Minimal Facts Argument. So final question I have for each of you, well start with Steve and then Trent. So I dont know if that answers a question but probably the bodily assumption. It has all the free resources including the Study Guide to his first book, all his Bible studies, and his contact info: http://vernisage.us/stevechristie/ Steve Christie has also appeared on the Third Man Podcast: Steve Christie has written several books: It is never used for a female non-sibling relative in either Testament, nor in its Greek. The same in any intellectual study. SeanMcDowell.org. Check out this great listen on Audible.com. Since this dogma allows for her to have died before being taken up to heaven, it contradicts the purpose of a biblical assumption. According to Robert Sungenis, president of Catholic Apologetics International, unlike Jesus Ascension assumptions in the Bible are under the power of God not the individual being assumed. I just think, Well, yeah, Id also want to make my foster father perfect. So my quick mini rebuttal. "For you created my inmost being; you knit me together in my mother's womb.Your eyes saw my unformed body; all the days ordained for me were written in your book before one of them came to be" - Psalm 139: 13,16 I always wanted to have five kids, but I met and married my And I really appreciate that you are arguing against Catholicism based on what she teaches, right? Thats right. And I think one way that makes sense would be if Joseph had been previously married. Lets see, in Catholic Answers encyclopedia, it says that Andrew, the brother of Peter, is also called the son of Jonah. What he lived by, he died by. Oh, its for me? I mean, today there are Roman Catholics, about 70% of American Catholics that [inaudible 01:32:21] substantiation, let me finish-. Steve's showmanship is upbeat and romantic but there's a lot more. Lets talk about the perpetual virginity of Mary. All serious students of God's Word need to know these Christian apologists below. So, if the greatest of those born before Christ wasnt constricted to accepting the canon Christie is defending, then we shouldnt be compelled to do the same, either. We see this in Psalm 69:25. Its a word that really should be used strictly for God. None of the authors of the deuterocanonical books refer to a delineated list of writings (Hebrew, Ketuvim) within a closed Hebrew canon that did not include their own works. Other doctors like Ambrose, Augustine, Irenaeus and others in the early church, like Tertullian, Origen, Hillary of Portier, and seven popes believed Mary was either conceived in sin or committed acts of personal sin, including Thomas Aquinas, as late as the 13th century. Thank you very much, Steve. I will click the four-minute mark. Im really enjoying this. And number two, when it comes to veneration, worship, honor, give someone the respect that theyre due. Being sinful is saying that you have inherited original sin and becoming sin means that sin was imputed to you. I guess, after the New Testament, I guess heres a fun question, which of the church fathers would you be okay with preaching at your church? Thats just how debates work. While the New Testament does use different Greek words translated until to refer to the condition continuing after the event, such as [foreign language 00:02:21] on its own, [foreign language 00:02:25] is never used once this way in the entire New Testament. So even if that dogma is defined ex cathedra by a pope, by an ecumenical council, or by the magisterium, if it contradicts scripture, that dogma must be rejected. A lot of mouthful, but thats what links are for. Can a conclusion be infallible if the underlying logic is false? Dont have the context of this question. If you want to go more into that, my book, The Case for Catholicism has a chapter on the immaculate conception. It doesnt mention sin there. Yeah. I do talk about this in my book and there, I note that its used differently than in Sirach 18:17, where the word is also used in those situations. She would have to have a heavenly body. Its like, because-. So I agree with that. No, thats not the case. It would behoove us, then, to follow in their example and praise the gift of Gods word that comes to us in these writings and critically examine arguments such as those presented by Steve Christie that would tempt us to reject a portion of Gods sacred revelation. He scored 100 or more points in eight of . A four-month investigation found the late Ravi Zacharias leveraged his reputation as a world-famous Christian apologist to abuse massage therapists in the United States and abroad over more than. Ye, because Jesus younger half sibling was Joseph while Jesus father was God. Okay. What about after the apostolic age? And Id probably want to make Peter the rock of the church. Yeah. And one little historical note so that people Theres a bit of a myth here. FEIN: 47-5459301. And they did not want people following them. Trent, whenever you begin, Ill click the five minute timer. Thank you very much, Trent. Calvin did not believe in the perpetual virginity of Mary. And Trent and I actually talked a little bit about this, about essentials versus non-essentials of the faith. Trent, whenever you begin, Ill click the timer. Can you give one example in the New Testament where it describes God or Jesus being a preemptive savior instead of a redemptive redeeming savior? Not just on the Marian dogmas, but also regarding salvation. Good to hear from you again. Trent had mentioned about the age of accountability. Second, this debate is not about the church fathers or Christian history. Its nice to be able to go through all of these scripture passages. 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